Next year is the big Darwin anniversary. Two hundred years after his birth and
150 after the publication of On the Origin of the Species, millions
will celebrate the life and work of Charles Darwin, one of the most
brilliant scientists in history, and a man who was thoroughly decent,
honourable and likeable.
Unfortunately, he has become caught up in the crossfire of a battle in which
Darwin exhibited little personal interest. On one side of this cartoonish
debate are the creationists. Their precise numbers, in the UK, are
uncertain, although the major survey Theos
/ComRes are conducting into the
public's beliefs about Darwinism, creationism and ID, which will be
published next year, should help us find out more. Numbers aside, the point
is that creationists dislike Darwin and regularly criticise him for
supposedly undermining their religious beliefs.
In the other trench lie the militant Godless who – bizarrely – wholly agree
with the creationists. Darwinism, they proclaim, does indeed undermine
religious belief and a good thing too. Darwin is their icon and they
frantically genuflect before his image, in a way brilliantly parodied by the
satirical magazine The Onion.
The truth is, as ever, more complex. Darwin was too interesting, too careful a
thinker to be caricatured in these ways. He was a Christian and yes, he did
lose his faith. But he was never an atheist. He engaged in religious debate
with friends but confessed to being in a hopeless “muddle”. He agonised over
whether the exquisite beauty of life on earth was worth the pain of natural
selection. He hated religious controversy and was deeply respectful of
others’ views. He took upon himself the duties of a country parson whilst
living at Downe and contributed to the South American Missionary Society.
And, to top it all, he often doubted whether, his mind being evolved, he
could even trust it in such matters. All in all, he was too complex, too
subtle a man to be left to the polemicists.
So, in the interests, of rescuing him from the no-man’s-land in which he has
become trapped, here are 10 Darwin quotations, from his later years, which
you are unlikely to hear from the mouths of either creationists or atheists
in 2009.
1. “The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and
I for one must be content to remain an Agnostic.” (Autobiography)
2. “It seems to me absurd to doubt that a man may be an ardent Theist &
an evolutionist.” (Letter to John Fordyce, May 7 1879)
3. “I hardly see how religion & science can be kept as
distinct as [Edward Pusey] desires… But I most wholly agree… that there is
no reason why the disciples of either school should attack each other with
bitterness.” (Letter to J. Brodie Innes, November 27 1878)
4. “In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an atheist in the
sense of denying the existence of a God.” (Letter to John Fordyce, May 7
1879)
5. “I think that generally (& more and more so as I grow
older) but not always, that an agnostic would be the most correct
description of my state of mind.” (Letter to John Fordyce, May 7 1879)
6. “I am sorry to have to inform you that I do not believe in the Bible
as a divine revelation, & therefore not in Jesus Christ as the son of
God.” (Letter to Frederick McDermott, November 24 1880)
7. [In conversation with the atheist Edward Aveling, 1881] “Why should
you be so aggressive? Is anything gained by trying to force these new ideas
upon the mass of mankind?” (Edward Aveling, The religious views of
Charles Darwin, 1883)
8. “Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there
are any convictions in such a mind?” (Letter to Graham William, July 3 1881)
9. "My theology is a simple muddle: I cannot look at the Universe
as the result of blind chance, yet I can see no evidence of beneficent
Design." (Letter to Joseph Hooker, July 12 1870)
10. “I can never make up my mind how far an inward conviction that
there must be some Creator or First Cause is really trustworthy evidence.”
(Letter to Francis Abbot, September 6 1871)
Nick Spencer is director of studies at the public theology think-tank Theos
which is conducting, in partnership with the Faraday
Institute for Science and Religion a project on evolution, faith and
Charles Darwin. Mr Spencer's book, Darwin and God, will be published
in 2009 by SPCK.
I couldn't care less about Darwin's personal views. He discovered facts that already had an empirical existence, and his thoughts on religion are no more relevant than Newton's belief in astrology.
Eamonn Keane, dublin,
It is clear that fewer and fewer people are believing in Religion unless that belief is thrust upon them by their parents/Guardians. Just by this one can see that Religion is in fact becoming less and less powerful and will soon die out. Or so I would hope.
Andrew, Plymouth, UK, Devon
Hagiographicly heroised scholars instead of Saints, Scientific truth instead of God. Darwin might have discovered natural evolution, I just hope someone will do the same for society
Peter, London,
You are all atheists. Think about it.
Andy, Reading, UK
whats funny about England is that when my people found it they were living in caves, painting themselves blue and running around naked and mentally they still are. When my King Jesus returns it will be like the day after Hitler killed himself, Pleasant.
Christopher Ruggiero, Philadelphia, U.S.A.
"...what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable..." Rom.1:19-20.
ralph, san bernardino, usa
In his book, "The Undiscovered Self", Dr. Carl Jung observed: "The individual who is not anchored in God can offer no resistance on his own resources to the physical and moral blandishments of the world."
ralph, san bernardino, usa
"For my part, I loved and revered [the Bible], because I owed almost my whole development in moral culture to it."
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
"By all means drink deep of the fountains that are given to you in
the Sermon on The Mount...for they were meant for each and every one of us."
M. Gandhi.
ralph, san bernardino, usa
What i think Mr.B Ahmad is saying is that God IS the creator, and everything, from the universe and mankind, to the plant on our kitchen window sill, is His creation, hence to ask the question of 'who created God' is beside the point. HE is the creator and is OUTSIDE His creation, even time n space.
Noshi, London,
Intresting Comments, i have read many but one thing seems to Puzzle me why and how so many "intelligent" people seem to think "GOD / The Creator" exists within creation i.e. time and space and is subdued by the laws of both. As for who created "GOD" why is he not eternal as he is not within time
B.Ahmad, London,
I might have been inclined towardsTheism but for the evolution of religion.
james mattinson, Houston, USA
Nick Stephens - I'm afraid you've got it wrong. Since we athiests don't think there is a "god", we really don't worry about who "who made him". The question just doesn't arise.
On the contrary, if you believe in a god, you should be the one worrying about who made him.
alan, germany,
The argument that something doesn't come out of nothing, applies equally to god or evolution
N. Zymes, Liverpool, UK
...has no evidence to back it up because the supposed alternative has seemingly little?
Toddie, London, UK
Keith/Mark
Re Entropy/Thermodynamics: growing complexity in living organisms is not a violation of the laws of thermodynamics, since they consume low entropy food/fuel to do work.
The whole system entropy increases, but the low entropy within the organism is maintained. Open system - no problem.
David, Hampshire, UK
Those who believe we descended from monkeys, by their own admittance, don't have a brain that can actually discern the huge mystery of where we originated from. So they should abstain from any deep discussions and go and enjoy this short little life they believe we have.
Mrs. Rene O'Riordan, Dublin, Ireland
The atheists seem to have a problem with "if God made man, then who made God".
So, if the Universe started with a Big Bang - what came before the Big Bang? Matter can neither be created nor destroyed - so the matter of the Universe has to have come from somewhere. What created that matter?
Nick Stephens, Worcester, UK
I have just read Richard Dawkins book "The God Delusion"and I am even more confused now!,he says that it is very improbabable that God exists,but he does'nt rule it out so he is not an atheist is he?He is not 100% sure.Nobody will ever prove this question one way or the other. I'm still agnostic.
Les, Sheffield, UK
The key problem for us to comprehend is; "If God made Man then who made God".
Johny, Rennes, france
It would have taken ages for Neanderthals, or any other previous species to evolve into Homo Sapiens, so there ought to be a fossil record of some intermediate stage of evolution. Where is the missing link? I have to assume that there was an act of God turning such animals into spirit capable beings
Nigel MacNicol, Oakham, Rutland, UK
There are actually two debates here that people often confuse: evolution vs. creationism and theism vs. atheism. They are separate; evolution does not imply atheism just as theism does not imply creationism. One can believe that God created the universe but afterward let it evolve.
Michael Blonde, Port Angeles, USA
Everyone is god. There's nothing else to be.
Ralph, Albany, New York, US
Alan, Manchester - Is it not illogical to assume there are only 4 dimensions in our universe or that there is only one universe? The other universe (which God inhabits ) is based on different "dimensions" and so we cannot detect it with our physical senses or instruments but we "see" it by faith.
Duncan, Glasgow, Scotland
Most peoples do believe in God. If they find that their minds cannot comprehend God, then they usually turn themselves into God. Which is by the way a very poor substitute. God would not be God if He were no smarter than the smartest man. I would say faith must play a part.
jim, Pembroke, U.S.of A.
To r. Segemalov,
very, very clear,Sir,
Luis Fuentes, santiago, Chile
If Darwin had known about fractals he would have seen divine design. Our knowledge will never be complete so we have to walk on with open minds.
Geraldine Leale, ascot, england
Atheism is as absolute as theism. If there are 5 or more dimesions then God as we understand it is possible. As for intelligent design, how do you explain haemorrhoids or female urinary tract infections - poor engineering. I have no idea if there is an afterlife so I shall enjoy the one I have.
Tim Rankin, Bowral, Australia
The Knowable belongs to the realm of Time & Space, and Knowledge is a toy given us just to play with it for the time being... to learn to believe in things which are not (yet) as if they were. So that when there is no more Knowledge to play with we would be able to Know just as we are Known...
sergemalov, Baltyjsk,
What I find interesting is that some of Darwin's conclusions were identical to Genesis.
Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly... fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
http://www.jahtruth.net/evolut.htm
Could this be what muddled him? :-)
Danny, Gibraltar, Gibraltar
If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is. This being so, who will dare to undertake the decision of the question? Not we, who have no affinity to Him. -Pascal
Eric, Holmdel, New Jersey, USA
From nothing, there's nothing.
Father Bryan Storey, Tintagel, UK
Charles of Los Angeles - you say that since humans "created god", god exists. No.
Humans merely created a concept, and idea of a god. That's all that exists - in their heads, so to speak.
You can create a Father Christmas concept, but that doesn't make him exist.
I wish people would think logically.
alan, germany,
Agnosticism is a much more easily defensible position than atheism. The universe is a big place. Our total knowledge of it is miniscule. Just suppose God lives in the Andromeda galaxy. It's far away and we haven't been there yet to see that God does or doesn't live there. One just can't be sure
Chris, Eugene, USA
Since there are accounts of Darwin on his deathbed rebuking everything he said against God in life, I find it hard to believe that he didn't have some sort of spiritual revelation at the closing of his life! Therefore, I find no reason to question much of what he has said!
Christina, Omaha, NE, USA
Chris , Eugene;
There is no chicken vs egg conumdrum. The egg came first since the hen who laid it was a proto animal. YES! Education is great. Have you ever asked yourself why we need to develop resistance in the first place. I nothing changed then there would be no need, right!
Johan, Stockholm, Sweden
Christianity is based on an amalgamation of many religions basically originating in worship of the sun - religion itself evolved into what you see today; human desire to live forever.
I recommend Zeitgeist (and then read up yourself on the subject matter of the documentary) for those who believe.
Paul, Chester, UK
Natural selection yes. Evolution no..Bacteria develop resistance, but they are still bacteria. Humans develop resistance to disease but still remain human. If evolution is fact, the exact mechanism for the advancement or change of a species remains elusive. Its the old chicken vs egg conumdrum
Chris , Eugene,
A living organism is complicated. Take apart a watch, put all the parts in a container. How long would you have to shake it for all the parts to come together to be a watch again. Then there is the problem of the energy to start it running, and then reproducing. A single cell is more complex.
Chris , Eugene,
Since humans created god, then god does exist. So to say he doesn't would be like saying gravity doesn't exist in that it's a term we created to facilitate an explanation for the once unknown laws. As we advance, we uncover the different layers of god and the definition of the meaning changes.
Charles, Los Angeles, USA
I do not believe in evalution. But I do believe in adaptation. Jesus said said " profesing them selves to be wise they became fools". It realy is not important where "life came from". Why would it be? The past is the past. If Christians are wrong, oh well! If not? We're in trouble!
Marcus Murphy, Miltonfreewater, United States of America
Evolution versus creationism is logos versus mythology; or reality versus superstition.
There is no god, but religious folk are scared to let go, and just go on pretending.
Our ancestors lacked knowledge...and invented gods galore in their attempts to understand existence. But we know better,
colin, kelowna bc, canada
"Origin Of Species" I believe - no THE
richard, wirral, uk
In Victorian England of the 1850s, Darwin went just about as far as he dared in stating his lack of belief without being disowned by the society in which he lived. Religion recognises a genuine threat when it sees it - that is why 99.9% of the criticism leveled at evolution comes from religion.
John Tate, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK
We can debate intelligent design v evolution until the cows fly home.
I'd rather see the debate evolve into an intelligent and respectful dialog.
Like Richard Dawkins and John Lennox talking at the University of Alabama, in Birmingham. I'd love more of that.
Danny Butler, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
I came across this quote by Dr. Alfred H. Burton BA, MD a polymath who died in 1937.
"Some learned scientist may yet arise who will tell us that the ape is a degraded man, ..." from 'Windows on the World'
DISCUSS
Anyone who knows any genetics should know that that makes more sense than evolution.
Les, Ramsgate, UK
There are many intelligent, honorable biologists who are Christians. Surely any discussion of this subject needs to account of their views, though this is rarely achieved.
Jim Guest, G. Manchester,
Chris, France: I was not denying evolution but in the short space available, stating that discussing it with religious believers can be futile. The cruelties of the Bible is a more interesting debate. Christians claim the God of the Bible is loving but the text demonstrates a psychopath killer.
Robbie, Wellington, NZ
Mr Walmsley It is the barbaric rituals, cruelty, ethnic cleansing and other unbelievable torturous, unjust, bloodthirsty actions committed by God or his cohorts in the Bible that appals me; not what the suffering Job thought. Children torn to pieces by bears, people stoned to death for misdemeanours
Robbie, Wellington, NZ
Chris, France: I was not denying evolution but in the short space available, stating that discussing it with religious believers can be futile. The cruelties of the Bible is a more interesting debate. Christians claim the God of the Bible is loving but the text demonstrates a psychopath killer.
Robbie, Wellington, NZ
Truth is the more we know of the Infinite One, the less we know. That's the finite condition.
Father Bryan Storey, Tintagel, UK
Alan, Manchester - Of course you can believe in a god and argue for him - if you pre-suppose his existence. The problem of our 3-dimensional brain is correct. We can't understand anything beyond these three dimensions (space) and the 4th (time). Let's admit it and not invent a god to explain things.
alan, germany,
In Darwin´s time the majority was religious since they didn't have access to what we know today. Darwin was ridiculed by a mob of ignoramuses. Today we don't know everything but we still know a bit more don't we? The fact that some things are still unknown is not an invitation to cling on to faith.
Johan, Stockholm, Sweden
Science books constantly change as what we "know" changes. God never changes. <<<
It behooves me to question the arrogance (disguised as intellect) of anyone who has the tenacity to assume that they "know" what God is thinking, what God is, or whether or not God changes.
D. El De McClung, Worthington WV, Amerika
We are all gods children eh???
Oh dear,,, I'll bet he's not very happy with his offspring then..
Wars murder rape pillage Bush Brown Blair
The Inquisition and on and on .
Nice family.
rick, storlien , sverge
Natural selection does happen but there has never been one KIND of animal evolve into another KIND i.e. a fish hasn't evolved into a dog. God created humans and the different kinds of animals. Science books constantly change as what we "know" changes. God never changes.
Ken, Illinois, USA
Machiavelli said that to maintain power you must control religion. If there is not religion you must invent it. Thereby you get the uppermost authority to tell the people what the purpose of their lives is. It all boils down to the concept of "purpose" of man and for whom this concept is useful.
Peter Andersen, Copenhagen, Denmark
Evolution is supported by evidence. You don't like it then disprove it, by science not repression. The truth is, acceptance of evolution means not being God's chosen but just a step in the process of His plan. The faithful don't fear it, the religious are terrified by it.
KR, Stockport,
I see no controversy between the Bible and evolution. Darwin was right on the mark:
(Genesis) Adam/man = 'ruddy'
soul (as in "man became a living soul") = 'animal' principle/breathing creature
Somewhere along the line 'one' chimp (Adam) gained something the other primates didn't.
Dawn Wessel, Mundare, Canada
But there MUST have been someone who started the universe, there MUST there MUST there MUST! (kicks heels) ;o)
Thinking anthropormorphically is a fallacy. Why should there have been a Someone? Why can't there have been nothing? Why should there have been something?
DG, Newcastle,
Mr Wellington, I take it you have read all Holy Books to form this wise opinion. The oldest book in the Bible (Job) describes the earth being round and hanging in space. Way before scientists. Who drew a BC AD, measuring line + ?(Jesus) in time which you yourself cannot escape. Primitive writers.
Mr Walmsley, Manchester, England
Robbie, NZ evolution is proven. It has been demonstrated in labs using various animals that have short generational cycles such as the fruit fly. Observation shows that species traits as well as mutations pass from one generation to the next. This, in science, is known as a fact.
Chris, France,
Evolution vs Creator is improvable and could go on for ever.
What is true and is certain provable, using simple logic or reason is that the world’s ’ Holy Books’ are almost certainly the work of fairly primitive writers, certainly male and skilled in installing fear as a method of ‘persuasion’.
Robbie, Wellington, NZ
If we could prove God exists, there would be no free will. Quantum theory is possibly a dead giveaway - He does play dice, Albert. He has to be hidden. Too parochial to say that what happened before our Universe cannot be known. Goodbye Big Bang, Hallo Big Swing. &That's just this Universe ....
Jan Cosgrove, Bognor Regis, UK
Believing in a creator is understandable (because of the ‘mystery of life’) believing in the Creator depicted in the Bible is deliberately not using the brain that either evolved or was given.
Robbie, Wellington, NZ
The case for a Divine Creator is not verifiable, and so not a scientific theory. But that doesn't mean it isn't true. It isn't verifiable that I am right handed (for readers of this) - all you have is my say-so. But that doesn't mean it isn't true. It's possible to belive in both God and evolution.
Alan, Manchester,
And to Anth- assume for a minute that a Divine Creator does exist. For simplicity, I will call him 'him'. He created the Universe, and therefore the dimentions. Time is a dimention, so He created it. Therefore, He existed before time, and so what happened before Him is not a valid question.
Alan, Manchester,
Sorry to write 3 replys.
Imagine instead of having 3 dimentions (and time) we only have 2- left/right and forwards/backwards. Asking 'what is above this you' is not a valid question- the direction doesn't exist.
And if you can't explain where He came from, where did the Big Bang come from?
Faith.
Alan, Manchester,
Life - at any level - molecular - cellular – organic - specific is absolutely impossible by evolution. This is demonstrated over and over again. It goes against all logic and science.
So much belief is simply because of what people want to believe.
Les, Ramsgate, UK
Do you know that the theory of evolution is 'in crisis'?
I would go so far as to say that it is dead and we are observing the frantic nervous twitching of the corpse :- )
Of course the essential problem is that dumping evolution leaves no alternative except 'God', and that is unacceptable.
Les, Ramsgate, UK
Let all be aware that evolution is not the proven theory that it's propagandists say.
Dawkins was put to silence by a simple question, something like: "Tell us of beneficial mutations?"
There is no mechanism that works.
Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant.
Choose "No god for me" or "God for me."
Les, Ramsgate, UK
sounds like you’re clutching at straws there Julie! You didn’t answer any question at all there, the fact of the matter is people here are trying to use the ‘something from nothing’ argument against atheists/evolution when the argument is even more relevant to religious types....
Jamie T, aberdeen, scotland
In answer to Anth from the UK, the obvious answer to your question is...God. The Creator of the Creator, of the Creator...Whoever that first one on the list is, is God. The First Cause, the Creator, the Beginning...whatever term you like, there HAS to be someone who started everything.
Julie, Cincinnati, U.S.A.
To Anth,
I would suggest that you consider Aristotle's Unmoved Mover.
You will notice that I make no reference to any theology, but rather to philosophy.
Louis Pizzuti, Clay, NY,
the only thing that annoys me about the whole creation/evolution debate is that people are arguing one theory over another and claiming it as fact. There has never been an example of one species evolving/mutating into another species.
brian, New York, England
For those of you that believe in a god because "something can't come of nothing, and therfore must have been divinely created"... Who created your creator?
Through science, we improve our knowledge of the world. Religion can't do this. It has answers, but they are terribly primitive and useless
Anth, Sunderland, UK
Given sufficiently broad definition of god(s), they exist.
Dawkin's calls himself an atheist but admits the possibility of some sort of supernatural being/creator, other than the popular gods.
So Dawkins definition of atheist is pretty much identical with Darwin's definition of agnostic.
Keith S, Winnipeg, Canada
Mark, the Laws of Thermodynamics and Newton's Laws are inaccurate: They violate relativity and quantum mechanics.
Evolution by natural selection is the old hypothesis that stood time with least tweaking.
Specific creation is disproved with each new variety of plant and animal humans breed.
Keith S, Winnipeg, Canada
Unfortunately for you Mark, you have a deep misunderstanding of how evolution works. I think with a little bit of research you'll find that evolution is as much fact as the earth going around the sun, and that it doesn't contradict any of the scientific laws. Educate yourself.
Justin, Columbus, USA
Science has confirmed evolution to be impossible. Something can't evolve just because you throw more time at it. The 2nd law of thermodynamics confirms this. Monkeys aren't giving birth to man today are they? They never did. Check out the Entropy law. Weird how it all goes against scientific laws.
Mark, Petersburg, USA
clement- you are wrong, just because creatonist psuedoscientists cant figure it out doesnt make it so, do some research.
barry- god doesnt answer that question at all, then where did this god come from?
Jamie T, Aberdeen, Scotland
Humans need a religion as a sort of auto-pilot so that they don't need to think too hard about issues they are unsure of. Believe it or not there is even a religion now based on Darwin called the Creativity Religion.
keith b, Wigan, uk
But what did we "evolve" from? something doesn't come from nothing does it, and atheists have a lot more faith than I have, believing that nothing brought something out of nothing. I find it much easier to believe that somebody brought something out of nothing.
Barry Holroyd, Leeds, England
evidence of a Designer creates problems for the evolutionist,for evolution cannot account for the sophisticated design within living things,especially at the cellular and molecular levels.There are compelling reasons,that a Darwinian explanation for the mechanisms of life will forever prove elusive.
clement oladejo, lagos, nigeria
For me belief in God is a matter of pure logic. It is far more logical to believe in Something rather than Nothing, in Someone rather than No one. I have never come across Nothing nor have I come across Noone. I have always experienced Something and Someone.
bruce busbt, brisbane, australia
Darwin may not have been an atheist 150 years ago,but surely the fact he was questioning the existence of a god back then is enough evidence to say he would be an atheist if he were alive today.Darwin may not disprove a god,but it does disprove every religion there is-none of them mention evolution
Jamie T, Aberdeen, Scotland
Padraig, we may not be able to disprove the bible- in the same way we cant disprove the koran, santa claus or the flying spaghetti monster. Your argument is flawed. Massively Flawed.
Jamie T, Aberdeen, Scotland
"I will not exist after 20??, when I will rot. " - Unfortunately, the Bible says that there will be a Day Of Judgement - for sinners like myself, we are offered the "Robe Of Jesus' Righteousness" - all other people are too - see: "http://www.amazingfacts.org/".
Philip, Nr. Haywards Heath, England
Joe - is that 'Fogey' as in old? Whyever did you need an astronomer to teach you the obvious? I am rather touched that the slightly agnostic Darwin should take up the duties of a country parson and contributed to a missionary society - what a fair minded man he seemingly was..
Adam Gardiner, Larnaca, Cyprus
Sehara, there is nothing wrong with questioning darwin or any scientific theory. however there is a difference between questioning and saying, 'thats wrong cos god did it'.
Jamie T, Aberdeen, Scotland
Ah Colin, I think there lies the rub. A lot of humans think their existence is significant. They are human-centric and still want to believe that the sun orbits them! Darwin did not live to see what harm religious fundamentalism can do. It is very dangerous, as we in this century have witnessed.
Rose, Bath, UK
If all life was created in the Garden of Eden, albeit 6,000 years ago, and there is no evolution, then each time a species becomes extinct that must mean the number of different species can only keep going down. The Bible says nothing about God creating any new species after Eden.
Den, Gaithersburg, USA
I agree 100% with Colin. To Sehara I say, people who place irrational conviction - based on nothing - on a level with rational scientific rigour based objectively on observed evidence may be meeting their own emotional needs but equally demonstrate fundamental psychological flaws - and gullability
Michael, Norwich, UK
What is wrong in questioning Darwinism? With the knowledge in microbiology there is more questions arising every day that Darwinism cannot answer. Darwinists are acting like evolution is another religion and if you are asking questions (especially if they don't know answer), they are angry.
Sehara, Boise, USA
It seems to me that the reason some people are religious is because they can't face their own mortality. I did not exist before 1953. I will not exist after 20??, when I will rot.
I don't have a problem with this.
Secondly, I'm not bothered that there is no reason or purpose to my existence.
colin, london, england
As an atheist I don't "genuflect" before Darwin - I respect his achievement as a scientist, but his opinions about existence of Gods are irrelevant. What he did was show that we evolved, with no need of a creator. As important, astronomers have shown that the Universe doesn't centre around us.
Joe Fogey, Plymouth, Devon
Dear "Padraig, Ventura, USA" -
It is not for we atheists and agnostics to "disprove" that the bible; rather, it is for you, the bible-believing theist, to scrape up enough evidence to "prove" to the open-minded observer, that it is what you claim it to be - the error-free word of god.
neclark, Long Beach, CA, USA
Evolution does not disprove "god" but no religion describes god "cause of everything" correctly. Believe what you want but religions are just stories about god and they were written by primitives. Atheists are simply non-religious people--that is the only correct definition.
james, rochester,
It's about time people realized that Darwin wasn't a sick atheist and respected him for who he was, I think he'd be sickened bythe awful turn his theory has spawned. He'd probably pull most atheist scientists into court over what they've done to his theory- he;d be a VERY RICH MAN in the end.
Dena Stewart-Gore, Louisville, United States
i personally want to believe there is a God, but i cannot comprehend how people delude themselves into believing evolution is wrong. your only evidence for creationism is in genesis, which is supposed to be written by moses, but even theologeans think it was written by 4 seperate people.
will, grimsby, uk
the only way we as a species can prove religion or not is to explore the universe. if we are the only planet in the universe to have life, then that, purely by the numbers means that we are a miracle, if not then we are distinctly average. i want to believe in God but i dont want us to be unique.hmm
wil, grimsby, uk
Padraig,
This assumes the most fundamental idea that something written down by man is a divine truth. What proves the bible?
Scott, Ballard, U.S.
"Nick Spencer is director of studies at the public theology think-tank Theos" Hm, interesting? Check out the website, Christian much Nick? This is the worst kind of religious drivel, designed to disguise and confuse their agenda. Nick ole buddy, religion has no place in the public discourse.
Neal, Huntington Beach, CA, USA
Honestly...
This is where 'religion' has taken the original context of what Jesus brought and taught and made it into something that is argued on a humanistic level.
Jesus preached the Kingdom of God, and that it is within man. Relgion is man creating a kingdom from his own interpretations.
Kenneth Schortgen Jr, mesa, az
Thank you! It is this co-optation of Darwin by those who claim his work "disproves" God that produces so much of the fearful reaction against evolution. A simple attempt to discuss the issue, without gratuitous ridicule or silencing of believers, is essentially all the pilloried Reiss advocated.
D.L. Anderson, Crossett, AR/U.S.A.
I find it amusing, as though atheists rallied around effiiges of Darwin. I am an atheist myself, one truly without a shred of doubt and conviction in my "beliefs." Yet I have no interest in throwing religions under the bus, they are import from a historical and humanistic viewpoint and far from evil
Nicholas Byrd, Burlington, USA
Padraig:
No one can answer that question for you. No one knows. Some claim that it was the big bang, some claim it was God who created us. I am myself an agnostic, but I have no solution for your question, and I'd challenge you to answer the same question "without speculation, theory or conjecture"
alex, alexandria, us
"For atheists and agnostics.....without using speculation, theory or conjecture tell me where mankind comes from"
Please, without using reason or common sense, explain where mankind comes from....
</sarcasm>
Can you disprove evolution without the bible?
bryan, Columbia,
padraig, your argument is wrong. their is a fossil record thats shows how life has evolved for the past however many 100 million years. even antibiotics prove evolution. bacteria become resistant to them, because their genes mutate and then the resistant ones are naturally selected. hence evolution!
will, grimsby, uk
For atheists and agnostics....answer this please....without using speculation, theory or conjecture tell me where mankind comes from and, more importantly, why.....neither Newton, Einstein or Darwin could answer it..the bible cannot be disproven by any soul who has ever lived.
Padraig, Ventura, USA
I think CD admitted in his writings his belief in a 'First Cause' but couldn't explain it, but was very certain on the fact that the initiating process of life was a one-off event both temporally & spatially on this earth at least- this is a pretty major conclusion don't you think?
Otus McTaw, London, England
Dave Cross, London, UK --
"the militant Godless ... Darwin is their icon and they frantically genuflect before his image"
Er... no. You really don't understand atheism at all, do you?
Er...YES. You really don't understand humans at all, do you?
Marc, Tucson, USA
For years, I have spent a part of every day studying Holy Scripture. Far from finding flaws, I've found only greater and greater truth. All of earth acknowledges the life and death of Jesus Christ (BC,AD). We were created not just higher than animals but "just lower than angels." We are eternal.
Mary Martha, Pea Ridge, USA
"What about the evolution of the Psychotic Kernel?"
Isn't that popcorn?
Dan, Cincinnati, OH, USA
Was it Machiavelli that said religion was devised to gain power?
Tom Machin, Gravesend, England
As a Christian and a Scientist, I see the logical answer is that God created the universe (we still do not know how this was done, or why) and it has since evolved (as we know it has).
James, Putney, UK
There seems to be some confusion over 'Atheist' and 'Agnostic' here.
Atheist - Someone who believes that God does not exist.
Agnostic - Someone who does not believe that God exists, nor that he does not exist.
Darwin's statements above show that he was the latter, neither side can claim him.
Wil, Nottingham,
Dear Nick,
thanks for the article!
As a Christian who believes God created and intimately sustains creation through material processes in this non-deterministic n causally open world of ours I often feel out-shouted by the extremes of the argument.
This is one for the centre ground, thanks!
Nathan, Cambridge, UK
Why would any Deity create a universe as unimaginably large and old as it is, just to put the human race on a minor planet for a few centuries. We are no more significant in the universe than is one proton in a mountain.
Paul , northwich,
Virginia from Australia: You make it sound as though Atheists are only refusing to believe in Jesus to inflate their own sense of self-worth, like a teenager rebelling from his parents. The arrogance of your comment is astounding.
Phil, Baar, Switzerland
What about an investigation into why the human mind gravitates towards spirituality even in the face of rabid scientific fury? There must be a genetic, therefore, biological component. Scientists might vomit at the thought, but surely an investigation is warranted if the human race is the subject!
iain, bedford, uk
You have got the title of Darwin's publication wrong. His book was called "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection". There is no "the" in the title. Darwin was writing about speciation in general.
David Nicholas, Wimborne, Dorset
given that he said he was changing his views as he got older, it would have been more honest to list these quotes in the order of writing. What you would then see is that from his 1870 doubts he comes to reject the bible story (1880) , but doesnt want an aggressive fight on the issue (1883).
j, OXFORD, uk
Its great to finally see a sensible article on this subject withactual citations from Darwin himself, not made up conclusions from creationist of atheist ' experts '.
Barnaby, Oxford, UK
What odd ideas people have about atheists reasons. I didn't choose - I grew out of religion like I grew out of Santa Clause - with a tinge of regret. The only axe I have to grind is that in most conflicts around the world, past and present, there's a common factor; Religion.
John C, Cork, Ireland ex Liverpool
It is irrelevant what Darwin’s personal opinions are; his views are not gospel. Darwin has provided clear evidence that undermines religious teachings. The fact he can not fully recognise this says something about his personal and historical context.
Did god invent evolution?! Is that in Genesis?
John, London,
It is hardly surprising that Darwin had problems coming to terms with the challenge to faith that his work exposed. He was a product of a still very primitive religious society. The fact is he was saying that he could not grasp the beginning.We have come a long way since then! NO EVIDENCE!
Richard Sutherland, Hook, U.K.
The debate between evolution and creationism will go on for ever as its one of those issues the majority of people have set ideas on. The sad thing for me is that the creationist christian argument has no credibility whatsover. Open minded in this case simply means ignoring obvious facts.
Matthew, Dundee,
"the militant Godless ... Darwin is their icon and they frantically genuflect before his image"
Er... no. You really don't understand atheism at all, do you?
Dave Cross, London, UK
Darwin lived a long life and naturally modified his views over time. He needs to be seen against the background of a much more religious society, and a desire not to hurt his very religious wife. What is important is that his brilliant idea can explain complexity without the necessity of a designer.
Andrew, London, UK
Darwin wrote On the Origin of Species not On the Origin of THE Species. This may seem unimportant, but the book was not about the evolution of humans (THE species), a fact often ignored by its critics.
Martin, Bordeaux, France
“In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God.”
Where were these quoutes during 3 hours of the absorbing through somewhat biased Richard Dawkins TV documentary? Darwin was a great man and he summed his views up just fine by himself.
Catalpa, Kent,
It is not belief in a Creator that makes a problem, the problem is the Doctrine of Organised religions, which is often preposterous, sometimes unethical and often not about goodness. If we teach creationist theory then it must include all of the creation stories from all the religions or we cheat.
Keith, Rayleigh, England
I do find myself in the same in the same position ''muddle''
Lec neli, London, UK
Darwin was doing his best to be acceptable in an age where it was still deeply unacceptable to be an atheist, especially if you were brought up in the Christian tradtion. He clearly didn't believe in Christ or the Creation myths.
Zac Smith, London,
“In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God.”
Which clearly means he believed in the existence of God, just that he did not believe in 'the creation' story of the bible.
If a person has a open mind the answers for creation r there.
das, Alpharetta, USA
Spot on David Pitan, most do not want to embrace the Gospel because it meant a life of purity but not perfect because no one is perfect and no one can be. Only Jesus is perfect and His mercies are new everyday. People prefer to pat their own backs and say "see how good i am" I dont need Jesus !
virginia, Brisbane , Australia
I like the idea of Freud about the religious feeling, that it is a kind of collective neurosis that prevent many to build up their own personal neurosis while dealing with what Lacan calls the Inner Eight, or what Dolto calls the Psychotic Kernel. What about the evolution of the Psychotic Kernel ?
Diouf, Aberdeen,
Norman,
It's a fact that people don't like being told what they don't want to hear. New atheists are beguiled by the false idea that rejecting God makes them free. In fact the opposite is true.
John McD, San Francisco, ca, USA
Arrrgh! All Christians are by definition "Creationists": they believe in an omnipotent God who created the universe. The real divide is between those who believe in the literal truth of the bible as the story of that creation, and those who hold to other accounts, evolutionary biology included.
AGB, Dallas, USA
If Darwin said this, “I am sorry to have to inform you that I do not believe in the Bible as a divine revelation, & therefore not in Jesus Christ as the son of God.”. Then by definition- not a Christian
Adrian, Fremont, USA
@Dave Pitan: I don't agree with you. You sound like those who say people are atheist because they don't like god's laws. Nonsense. Also, I think you like the idea of being persecuted for your faith - perhaps because the Bible says you win big time if you are?
Norman, Anstruther, United Kingdom
oh put a sock in it alan, germany! you know full well the difference between an intelligent scientist calling himself agnostic and ... you.
ola, Bristol, England
Both sides are in conflict because the message of Christ, in exposing the selfish, sinful nature of man was never popular. The redemption offer was not attractive either because most sins are pleasurable. Christ was slain for His message. Christians will always be persecuted for the Gospel.
David Pitan, Surrey, UK
My admiration for Darwin's genius is increased by these comments. It shows that he was, like me, an atheist, i.e. he did not believe in any god. He preferred to call himself an agnostic, but he didn't believe in god - so he would probably call himself an atheistic agnostic in any discussion today.
alan, germany,
Greetings:
Here's a brand new twist...both Creationism and Intelligent Design are UNSCRIPTURAL! Try this:
http://phoebekate.com/2008/09/14/randomness-creationism-and-intelligent-design
It's called: " Creationist Chimera of Accidental Evolution Lives On As Centerpiece of Intelligent Design."
Karen, Newport, USA